just getting started [Archive] - Frag Outpost Forums - Coral Propagation and Reef Aquarium Forums

littlemutt

10-03-2005, 05:14 PM

thanks helps alot! may seem like stupid questions, as i should have gotten the book first but have always had freshwater so it's all new to me.

tanks - 1 - 24 gal nanocube
1 - 20 gal plexi ( 17X17X17 ) homemade
1 - 18 gal - sump/refigium ( 32"l x 18"h x 7"wide) divided into 4 compartments (feed, skimmer/heater,refigium and return) homemade

the 24 nano and the 20 plexi are side by side with the 18 gal sump directly behind them all at the same level. i have them connected with 1 1/4" u-tubes -2 per tank. i have a quiet one pump (1140gph) located in the sump attached to a scsd wavemaker which i have plumbed to feed both tanks. i have a remora c skimmer located in the sump also as well as a 250 watt heater. lighting is a 64w 50/50 compact flour. over the nano, 96w compact flour. over the 20 gal and a small compact flour over the refigium.

would greatly appreciate your opinion on my set-up and any suggestions you might have to make it better. thanks again for the help

littlemutt

10-03-2005, 05:21 PM

substrate is 40lbs of live sand for both, not sure if that's enough but will see, have odered 50 lbs of live rock which will be arriving shortly - also not sure if that's enough, hoping it is as i have limited funds.
have a million questions but don't want to ask to much, thanks again

Peterock

10-03-2005, 05:31 PM

Hello and welcome to the fourms before i give any advise i would like to see a pic of what you have working with and how you want stuff set up and laid out. please.

FragOutpost

10-03-2005, 05:35 PM

Please feel free to ask any questions you might have as there are some very knowledgable people on this forum. :)

40 lbs of sand would probably give you a shallow sandbed in both the tanks. If you add sand to your fuge too then you might find yourself needing more. If you do need more then you can save some $$ by getting some aragonite based dry sand, as in due time it will all be live (same goes for the rock too).

Sounds like you are off to a pretty good start. Since you are familiar with keeping freshwater tanks I will assume you are familiar with the cycling process. It is virtually the same as freshwater just be sure to take things slow in the begining.

If you choose not to cook your rock then I would suggest placing the rock in a container with some saltwater and take a powerhead and try to blow out as much deterious as you can before placing into your tank. This should also remove some of the stuff that did not survive shipping.

littlemutt

10-03-2005, 06:07 PM

still trying to figure out how to get pics and post them - i'm not much above computer illiterate. will work on it.
as far as layout all 3 tanks are next to each other, the 24 nano and the 20 plexi are side by side with the sump/refigium directly behind, they are interconnected with u-tubes and have been up and running for a couple of weeks with freshwater ( mainly just to see if setup would work and also to check for leaks ) everything seems to be working ok and yesterday i added salt. today i'm adding 40 lbs of live sand ( i hope that's the right way to do it ) 50 lbs of live rock is on the way.

the 20 gal is on the left side and i hope to have some coral, mushrooms,etc and 3 or 4 fish in it. 1 clown, 1 dwarf flame angel, 1 fridman pseudochromis and maybe a lawnmower blennie. does that sound like a good mix? would appreciate any ideas for coral,polyp's etc - this tank has a 96 watt 50/50 compact flour. lighting. is that enough light for coral? have thought about adding a metal halide at a later date when my buget allows.

the 24 gal nano is on the right side and i hope to have maybe a yellow watchman gody, a red velvet wrasse, citroen clown goby and lots of snails, hermits and shrimp. would like some ideas on coral, mushrooms, etc for lower lighting conditions as the tank came with 64 watts of 50/50 compact flour. lighting and seems like it would be hard to upgrade.

the 18 gal sump/refigium is located behind the other 2 and houses a protein skimmer(remora c) and a heater in 1 compartment, in the next compartment an 7 gal refigium which i have i have put 6lbs of kents marine biosediment and plan to plant some type of marine plants to help with filtration. not sure what would be appropiate and would welcome your imput.the last compartment houses a quiet one 1140 gph pump which powers an scsd wavemaker plumbed to both tanks. this works but does not seem to produce enough of a current. got the largest pump i could fit into sump but not sure if it's enough.

hope i've explained my setup so that you at least get a general idea - any help, comments, suggestions will be greatly appreciated - thanks

FragOutpost

10-03-2005, 06:36 PM

still trying to figure out how to get pics and post them - i'm not much above computer illiterate. will work on it.
You can use the JPEG compression utility to compress or resize the dimensions of your photos and to post them in a thread click on the "Manage Attachments" button and browse to where your photos are.

Maybe I misunderstood you but I just want to make sure that you know that it is not a good idea to mix salt and freshwater inside the tank with animals in it. It is ok to do when setting up a tank and it has no sand or rocks yet like yours. When making saltwater it is a good idea to mix the salt and water together with a powerhead in some sort of a container for at least an hour or two to let the salt come to an equilibrium. I usually try and make saltwater a day or two in advance and let it mix with a powerhead.

What kind of clown fish are you thinking about getting? I would recommend against a maroon because they will grow too big and most likely be aggressive. You should be ok with a percula, clarkii, or other small clowns. The flame angels are very nice fish but will probably outgrow a 20 gallon pretty quickly. You should have no problems with keeping various gobies or blennies or firefish though.

Most mushrooms, zoanthids, sun coral, and some soft corals, including kenya tree, sinularia, star polyps, toadstools, leathers, and even xenia if placed close to the light source, should adapt well under power compacts.

For your refugium I would highly recommend chaetomorpha. You could also try caulerpa racesoma or caulerpa prolifera, but should be aware of the potential hazards when they attempt to sexually reproduce.
Check out FloridaPets (http://www.floridapets.com) for a good source of macro algae.

D12monkey

10-03-2005, 08:33 PM

First off....

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s27/smilies-23998.png

Second.... Seems like you're off to a good start. But you prob have a while before you will be able to place any fish or livestock in the tanks. Is there any reason why you chose to setup you system like this? If you DIY the tanks why did you create a larger tank? Also if you want to go ahead and start cycling the tank you can use 1 - 3 cocktail shrimps and throw it in the water once you get the live rock, as when it starts to decay it'll release ammonia and start the cycling process. You will eventually see a massive ammonia spike, followed by a nitrite spike, followed by a nitrate spike similar to a freshwater cycle. Please wait till all the above mentioned return to 0 before placing any livestock in the tank. But other than that looks like your one your way.

littlemutt

10-04-2005, 06:45 PM

thanks again for the help

i had seen (maybe here) where someone said to put cocktail shrimp into a new tank to help cycle it rather than scrafice a few live fish, when i mentioned this to my lfs he looked at me like i was insane. he said no way it will pollute your tank, normally i might have believed him but have learned over the years that many lfs people know less than i do but feel they have to give an expert opinion regardless of wether they know what there talking about or not. my question is how long would i have to leave them in the tank and how long should my tanks take to cylce? also would just the LS and the live rock cylce them eventually? have planned on taking my time before introducing any livestock. does that also apply to live plants or can they be added now or shortly?

do i keep lights and protein skimmer on or off during cyling ? i do have freshwater mollies which can live in saltwater, would that be an alternative if i added a few of those for awhile?

FragOutpost

10-04-2005, 07:01 PM

You could use anything that would decay and produce ammonia. This would include fish poo, meaty seafood, fish food, almost anything really. I believe the point of the shrimp is to kick start the cycling process. I have never attempted the shrimp method before but I would assume that you would remove what was left of the shrimp once it got funky. You can use live rock and live sand too. If you do not cook your rock then there will be plenty of nasty to start the cycle. There is no need to keep the lights on during this period because you shouldn't have anything photosynthetic in there yet. I would run the skimmer at this time but others may disagree. The mollys would generate fish poo so that is another option for you too just make sure to aclimate them. Whatever method you choose just make sure to be patient and before you know it your nutrient spikes will pass and you will be ready for livestock.

littlemutt

10-04-2005, 08:01 PM

thanks D12monkey and others for the welcome, am looking foward to many pleasant experiences with this new hobby. all your help is appreciated and this seems like a great forum, you guys make someone feel right at home - thanks again

the reason for the setup i have is the limited research i have done so far. i started by buying a 24 gal nanocube which i had hoped to setup and start out in saltwater in a small way. figured i could learn from that and go larger when i had some experience. but the more i read the more i realized that small is not always good, that the more water you have the easier it is to maintain a stable system. i then saw a site where a guy built his own sumps and refigiums, it looked like fun so i gave it a try. since the spot i had for the tanks is not that big i had to keep things small. first i built an 18 gal sump/refugium, it was fairly easy and a lot of fun and when i finished it i realized that i had just enough room for an additional tank which is a 17" cube and holds 20 gals, both turned out great and i would recommend that anyone interested give it a try, it was a very rewarding experience.

i was afraid of putting a sump under my tanks in case of pump failure or power outages so i decided to keep them all on one level interconnected with u-tubes and so far this has worked out well. if there should be a power failure the water levels remain the same and there would be no flooding. i also liked the idea of having 2 seperate tanks because it allows me to have different types of fish and inverts without the risks of one eating some of the others and the work of maintaining them is about the same as 1 bigger tank but i have the benifit of 2 different reefs.

D12monkey

10-04-2005, 08:32 PM

Hey I figured you were wanting to add different types of fish in the systems. I Have used the shrimp method with live rock and yes I removed the shrimp once it got really funky. The "live rock" you are getting will also work as you have die off during shipment. Just make sure that you have cleared the spikes. This usually can take from 4 - 6 weeks and I have heard it take longer.

D12monkey

10-04-2005, 08:35 PM

Ohh and for the smaller tanks. You are correct the smaller the more difficult to maintain. I have a 2.5 gal reef tank which has about 1.75 gals of water in it. Displacement of live rock. I'm constantly adding water to the system and attempting to maintain the water parameters as steasy as possible. That's along with my 55 gal FOWLR and my 29 gal reef.

littlemutt

10-05-2005, 07:05 AM

i am getting live rock froma place called aquarium arts and they claim that they have done all the curing for me (a 3 step process which sounded complete) they also claim that when they ship all die off is over and that new growth has already begun. it's packaged in plastic with water then boxed and shipped. they also say it can go right into an established tank without any worries and on a new setup livestock can be added imediately as long as tank has cylced before adding the live rock. has anyone heard of or had any dealings with this company? there site " prime cured live rock" looked and sounded real good, lots of photos and testimonials. also had lots of useful information so i took a chance and ordered 50m lbs which i hope is enough for both tanks. will still hold off adding any livestock til everything is stable.

i may still be able to cancel the order if anyone has heard anything negative about them. would appreciate any comments - thanks

Peterock

10-05-2005, 11:36 AM

I have not dealt with this company but if they are sending the rock in water and sealed then once you get it do a egg smell test if the rock smells funky then its not cured and if it smells like saltwater then your good to go. I use to ship rock over to missouri all the time and that is how i did it. But if you are still having problems posting pics then email them to me at karl.peters@comcast.net and i will post them for you.

FragOutpost

10-05-2005, 11:36 AM

Below quote taken from aquariumarts -

We then proceed to "cure" the rock, a process often referred to as "cycling". This means that the rock inhabitants continue the process of death and decomposition, and the pollutants produced by the decomposition are removed. The rock is rinsed in synthetic sea water and placed in an unlighted tank with a high rate of water flow from a closed circulation system. A biological filtration system supplied by a second pump, along with frequent water changes and a protein skimmer, removes the breakdown materials produced by the decomposing organic matter. At the same time, bacteria living in and on the rock increases and effectively becomes a "biological filter" which breaks down toxic pollutants, especially nitrates. Once the smell is gone from the rock in Aquarium Arts' curing tank, the rock is transferred to racks in another tank where it is exposed to high intensity light and vigorous water movement. A very efficient protein skimmer cleans the water. Sediment that accumulates in the tank is regularly vacuumed out and frequent water changes are made. Soon colonies of rich velvety red-purple, coralline algae (often several shades of color) begin to develop on the surface of the rock. Tiny invertebrates - worms, crabs, molluscs, bryozoans, sponges, coelenterates, and tunicates as well as coral polyps - that have survived the long trip from tropical ocean to our aquarium shop, begin to emerge on the surface, adding to the diversity and improving the filtration effect of "live rock". Individuals spread from one rock to another, establishing new colonies or populations. This is known as "seeding". Soon the rock is "cured" and "seeded", that is, there is no dead tissue in the cracks and crevices, and a healthy growth of invertebrates is invading the crevices and surfaces. But we give it more time. The rock is moved into a third tank for "polishing."

Finally, after 30-60 days this "live rock" is "cured"! All the dead material has been removed, new colonies of coralline algae cover the surface, and countless micro-organisms are emerging on the rock. At this point it can be put into an aquarium with no further cycling! If the temperature and salinity of the tank are stable, livestock can be added immediately. The rock will continue to improve in color and variety of plants and animals.

Let me start by saying that I have never purchased from aquarium arts before so I can not speak from experience here.

The above quote is taken from their website describing their "curing" process.

Excerpt from above - Tiny invertebrates - worms, crabs, molluscs, bryozoans, sponges, coelenterates, and tunicates as well as coral polyps - that have survived the long trip from tropical ocean to our aquarium shop, begin to emerge on the surface, adding to the diversity and improving the filtration effect of "live rock".

This is the kind of stuff that will die off during shipping, Not to say that all will die during shipping but a small percentage will, so I would still recommend a thorough rinsing with saltwater before placing in your tank.

Also remember that just because the rock arrives teaming with life doesn't necessarily mean that it will all survive in your tank. Your tank will balance itself out and stuff will die along the way.

I wouldn't equate their "curing" process with "cooking". Regardless I'm sure you will most likely be very happy with your order.

Also another thing to point out, when people refer to "filtration of live rock" it means the anaerobic bacteria that lives deep within the rock and its ability to process nitrates.

Don't be confused that - worms, crabs, molluscs, bryozoans, sponges, coelenterates, and tunicates as well as coral polyps - will contribute very much to filtration. :)

I have no doubt that you will be happy with your order. If you find yourself needing more rock then check out hirocks.com for base rock. There is no point in spending $$$ for more liverock, when you can buy base rock and place it underneath your 50lbs. of liverock. :)

Hope this helps!

littlemutt

10-06-2005, 02:48 AM

thanks for the hirock.com site will definately use them if i need more rock, the price is right.

checked ph for the first time it's 7.8 - i know that's low but should i worry about it right now being that nothing but LS is in the tank? i was thinking maybe it will go up if i leave everything running. if i need to raise it what is the best way? haven't even bothered with ammonia yet figure there is none being there's nothing in the tank. when should i start taking that reading ? what else should i be looking at at this point? live rock will be here on tuesday so i guess that might make testing more important. hope i am doing the right thing.

FragOutpost

10-06-2005, 10:25 AM

Your ph will swing from being low in the morning to higher before your lights turn off. I'm guessing that you are leaving your lights off during the cycle so your ph is not too bad. I wouldn't worry about it too much for now.

If you need to raise it later - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

This will be a good read for you also to help you understand more about calcium and alkalinity - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

Your ammonia should spike within the first week or two, immediately followed by a nitrite spike. When I cycled my 75 gallon I put in my sand, some live rock, and filled it with water and basically just forgot about it for 2 months. After 2 months had passed I started doing some water changes and then I tested to ensure that I was ready for livestock. The point is to just be patient and remember the famous quote "The only thing that happens fast in this hobby is disaster." ;)

littlemutt

10-08-2005, 03:02 AM

is it possible to add live plants before tank has cylced and would that help it cycle? wanted to get some plants and add them to the refigium so that by the time i add livestock they will be somewhat established. there are vendors on e-bay who sell several different types, any suggestions as to what types of plants to get and is that the best place to get them?

FragOutpost

10-08-2005, 01:09 PM

I don't think you would have too many problems adding some plants during the cycle. Most plants are pretty hardy. I would recommend chaetomorpha, aka spaghetti algae. Check around for local reef clubs in your area. Most people trim back their macro algae from time to time as a way to export nutrients. I also recommend floridapets.com for macro.

D12monkey

10-08-2005, 06:59 PM

I'd be more than happy to ship you some if you want. Instead of paying floridapets.com or some other company...

littlemutt

10-09-2005, 05:20 PM

damn! i just bid and won a bunch on e-bay. i'm always so impatient. thanks so much for the offer, appreciate it. hope what i did works out, just wanted to get something live in my tanks. thanks again

littlemutt

10-09-2005, 09:49 PM

would it be possible to add some polyps to my set-up at this time. do my tanks need to be cylced before i add anything like that? i know i'm pushing things but if there's no harm i'd like to add them.

D12monkey

10-09-2005, 10:28 PM

I wouldn't recommend it. Even though polyps are hardy they prob wouldn't last inside the tank during cycle. The reason being is when you cycle the swing in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are extreme and usual can kill off most organisms in the tank. Damsels have been know to survive the swings but it is very stressing on the animal and can be even construded as animal abuse depending on who you talk to.

littlemutt

10-11-2005, 07:05 PM

recieved 50lbs of live rock today from aquarium arts and was very impressed - great rock, lots of colors, no smell at all, and it even looks like some things are growing on it. after all the horror stories i have read about buying live rock over the internet i was a bit concerned about what i would get. what a relief this stuff is great, would recommend this place to anyone looking for live rock. prices where very reasonable, and it couldn't have been packaged any better, it's a shame shipping costs are so high or i would order some more, 50 lbs doesn't go as far as i thought it would and i could use at least another 30-40 lbs, wish i could afford it right now but if i want to keep on living i'm gonna have to hold off. wife took one look at the rock and said $400 for that!!!, i don't think she appreciates this hobby to much so far but i'm hoping that will change once some livestock has been added. any suggestions on how you get your other half to swallow all this expense? or is the divorice finalized yet?

one small problem is that 1 piece of rock is a little to big, is it possible to break it into smaller pieces? not sure how to do that but don't want to damage the rock to much. anybody have any luck with that? also do i keep the lights on now so that all that beautiful corraline alge keeps growing? getting excited now that it's starting to look like a reef but want to do the right things

FragOutpost

10-11-2005, 07:24 PM

Great! Glad to hear your rock arrived in good shape without any funky smell. That is always a good sign. :)

As for the wife...Well, forgiveness is usually easier to get than permission. :D Luckily my better half is pretty supportive when it comes to buying stuff for the tank, just not when it comes time to do the maintenance. ;)

You will probably need to bust out a hammer and chisel to get the most accurate break on the rock so that you end up with a couple of big rocks instead of a bunch of small rocks. Don't forget the saftey glasses.

Coraline is photosynthetic and will need light to grow, but is very hardy and can sustain lower levels of light until your tank has cycled and has corals.

Try to position the rock so that you have as little as possible touching the sand. The more sand that is exposed the better. It will help with water flow and reducing the amount of deterious that gets trapped. One suggestion is to get some 2"-3" pvc and cut it to the same length as your sand bed is deep, and use these to set your rocks on. Cut them slightly short so they do not stick out of the sand bed. This will keep your rocks from settling and sinking into the sand. Most stuff on the rocks will die, like coraline, sponges, etc, if buried in the sand.

littlemutt

10-11-2005, 07:41 PM

one thing i forgot to mention, am i talking to much and asking to many questions?, i don't want to hog all your time and space and overstep my welcome. i can't tell you how much i appreciate all the advice, it's helped so much but i don't want to overdo it.
please let me know when enough is enough i won't be offended. my wife never has a problem letting me know so i'm used to it. thanks!

FragOutpost

10-11-2005, 07:50 PM

Absolutely not. We are all here to learn. :)
Please, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'm sure we can learn from everyones experiences. That's why this forum is here!

littlemutt

10-15-2005, 05:01 PM

took water tests today and got these readings:

PH -8.0
amonia -0.25
nitrate - 10
nitrite - 0.25

are these levels ok? tanks have been running about 12 days now with LS from the beginning and LR added about 5 days ago, do these readings seem normal and do they show if the tanks are cylcing? these are the only tests i have, and i'm not sure if i need others or are these the improtant ones?

i know i'm not supposed to keep the lights on but i find it hard not to. i just sit there and stare at the rocks hoping to see some form of life. finally today i did, not sure what it was - grey armor plated looking creature about 1/4" long that could move very fast. i've heard alot of different names like pods, and such and was wondering if this could this be one of them? i know this most seem stupid to you guys but it was kinda exciting for me just knowing there was life in there.

FragOutpost

10-15-2005, 05:16 PM

Do you mean that nitrites are 10, and nitrates are 0.25?
If so then those test results sound about right.

Soon your ammonia should be zero, your nitrites should begin to fall, and your nitrates should start increasing .

Follow this link (http://reefsources.itgo.com/guide/biological.html) and scroll down a little ways to the image of an aquarium and press the play button for an animation of the cycle process.

Is this the critter you saw? (Photo from melevsreef)

http://melevsreef.com/id/amphipod.jpg

If so then it is an amphipod and is very desirable. They will mostly appear at night. I find myself sometimes spending more time watching the pods than the other stuff in the tank. They are pretty cool little critters. It is entertaining to watch them fight over food too.:)

littlemutt

10-20-2005, 12:45 AM

thanks for the pic, it may be what i have although mine seems to be a lot grayer in color so i can't be sure. against advice i have been leaving the lights on for approx. 12 hrs a day until the other day. i started noticing this brown ctton like stuff growing all over both tanks, is this some kind of algae? have herad the term brown algae and figure this must be it. have left the lights off for the last 2 days and it seems to have helped. is there anything i should be doing now like an algae remover or should i just leave the lights off and hope that it clears up?

i may have confused the two - nitrites and nitrates and will check again in a couple of days. hope those readings are in line for this stage of the cycling.

have taken some pics but every time i try to attach to this tread a small pop-up blocker sign appears in the lower right hand corner of my puter screen. i cannot find the source of the pop-up blocker and was wondering if anybody has experienced this problem. would appreciate any help getting rid of it if anyone has any ideas

FragOutpost

10-20-2005, 08:32 AM

There are a few different types of "brown" algae. You are most likely experiencing a bloom of diatoms or dinoflagellates, but could also possibly be some form of cyanobacteria. Cutting the lights back to 4 hours a day or less will limit the growth of any algae. The algae is growing becase of the excess nutrients produced during the tank cycle. For the next couple of months you will most likely go through various stages of algae blooms. This is normal and your tank will require time to reach a balance. If indeed you do currently have a diatom bloom then I would not worry about it too much as it should pass within a week or so and be overtaken with another type of undesirable algae.

I would definetly advise against the use of any chemical or antibiotic algae remover. Products like this will likely do more harm than good.

Controlling nuisance algae in the long term is a battle that must be fought on many fronts.

The use of reverse osmosis/deionized water,
running activated carbon,
growing competing macro algae in a refugium,
the use of herbivores including fish, crabs, snails,
protein skimming,
maintaining correct levels of ph & alkalinity,
removal of deterious,
regular water changes
are just a few ways to limit the growth of undesirable algae.

There are two ways to post images in a thread.

1. click on the "Manage Attachments" button and a pop up window will open allowing you to upload up to 5 images at once. Your pop up blocker is probably blocking this window. You should have an option somewhere that says "Allow pop ups from this website". If so, then select this option. What browser are you using?

2. you can include images that have already been posted on the web by using the "Insert Image" icon and providing the url of the image.

If you are still having problems you can email the images to me and I'll be happy to post them for you.

Hope this helps.

littlemutt

10-31-2005, 07:00 PM

thanks for the info, not sure what type i have so i'm going to try posting pics again! this should be fun as i haven't had any luck yet. i got as far as uploading them but i was told the files where to big. i'm using a nikon d70 camera and have reduced the resolution as per instructions and am hoping this will work. the quality may not be that good but it's a learning experience for me. i've taken some close-ups of the alge i have and would appreciate any comments. it's very strange, when i had been leaving the lights on this stuff started growing in both tanks, when you advised me to turn the lights off i did and the alge started going away in the first tank but in the second it seemed to get worse and still is after 2 weeks with lights off. also in the first tank there seems to be some brown stuff growing on the live rock and if i turn the lights on for awhile these little blue shiny dots appear on then, they look cool but i'm not sure what these are either (good or bad) they are not in the second tank at all. any help will greatly appreciated.

littlemutt

10-31-2005, 07:09 PM

guess the pics didn't work out, not sure what i did wrong. i used the lowest resolution setting on my camera, is there a way to reduce the size of these photos? this is frustrating!

forgot to mention that in the refigium neither of the alge's that i mentioned before are growing there, but there is a red agle growing but not enough to concern me. if all 3 (the 2 tanks and the refigium) are connected why are they all different?

FragOutpost

10-31-2005, 08:04 PM

It is best to use some sort of software to compress/crop/etc. your photos.
Try searching google for free photo editing software.

As far as your algae is concerned I will guess that it looks most like either lyngbya or hincksia. Plus it looks as though you have an diatom bloom. Don't worry though as it will all work itself out eventually. It is all part of the cycle. The best option right now is to try to manually remove as much as the brown stringy stuff as you can every week or so and this will help to export some of the nutrients from the tank. Also make sure to use a skimmer and add some herbivores.

Do you have any snails or crabs yet? If not then I would get some to start with. They will probably not eat much of the brown stringy algae but they should help keep other forms of algae under control as your tank finishes the cycling process.

Are you using reverse osmosis or deionized water?

littlemutt

10-31-2005, 08:29 PM

i am using photoshop elements for importing photos from camera, not sure if they provide the ability to compress photos, i also have nikon view,kodak easy share and mgi photosuite software in my computer but i've found that it gets way to confusing using different brands of software, i think for me i just have to stick with one and try and learn it throughly. i'm trying to do that with photoshop, if anyone out there uses it too i'd be grateful for any tips.
have no snails or crabs yet, thought i was supposed to wait for tanks to cylce first before adding them? what would be the best types for me to start with? any sites recommended for purcashing some? or am i better off getting them locally?
have started purchasing ro water from my local lfs, but at 1 dollar a gallon i can see the cost's are going to add up quickly. i have looked in local supermarkets but they don't seem to carry ro water. i was looking at a site that you have mentioned in here called mel's reef and i noticed that he sells an ro unit for about $ 150, does anyone know if this is a good one? the ones i've seen in catalogs where over $200 and had less canisters. money is an issue and if i can convince wife i'd like to be sure i'm getting something that works well.

FragOutpost

10-31-2005, 08:50 PM

I have not used photoshop elements before but I do use photoshop 6.0 regularly. Look along the top and click on "Image->Image Size". This should open a popup window where you can change the physical dimensions of the image. 550 or 600 pixels wide usually works well. After that click "File->Save for Web". This will compress the image for display on the web. Then save wherever you want. Like I said, i haven't used PS elements before, but I would assume that the basic functions are the same. Try it and let me know if that works for you.

As far as snails and crabs, the next time you are at the LFS grab a couple of astreas and maybe a couple of blue leg hermits or scarlets. Acclimate them to your tank and give them a week or so. If they are surviving reasonably well them get some more.

$150 for a 5 stage Ro/Di unit is not a bad deal. I paid more than that for my 4 stage unit. Do not get less than a 50 gpd unit. 100 gpd is better. A flush kit is recommended to lengthen the life of your RO membrane. I will sometimes get replacement prefilters and carbon block filters at my local Lowes or Home Depot which are usually moderately priced.
Most units are virtually the same. So go with the best price you can find for a comparable 4-5 stage 50-100gpd ro/di unit.

littlemutt

10-31-2005, 09:37 PM

tried what you suggested, set the pics at 500x330 pixels and am attaching again just to see if it's better.

D12monkey

10-31-2005, 10:02 PM

LOL Hey frag with those explinations, who needs to mention anything else. :p As for the RO units. I purchased mine a year ago from Ebay for $135 (shipping included) and it's a 7 stage both RO and DI filter. Works like a charm still... Haven't replaced a single thing on it, yet. I have a TDS meter and it's reading execptable low still. Besides my tap water isn't too bad, but won't used that.

Nice photos by the way. Love that camera... Too bad I'm a Canon Junky... :cool:

D12monkey

10-31-2005, 10:05 PM

Nice start...

littlemutt

11-09-2005, 03:50 AM

i retested my tanks and the readings are:

ph - 8.2-8.3
ammonia - 0
nitrates - 0
nitrites - 0

does this mean my tanks are cylced or will it still spike up and down for awhile?

i went to local lfs, he didn't have to much but i got 4 bumble bee snails and 2 hermits, it's been about 4 days now and they seem to be doing well so far. one of the hermits doesn't move around much, not sure if that means anything. i thought they would stay on the bottom sifting thru the sand which they did at first, but once they climbed up on the rocks they won't come off. should i be feeding them? i bought a package of dried marine algae and when i first put them in the tank i put a small sheet in a veggie clip on the bottom of tank and they imediately devoured the whole thing. is that enough to keep them going? the snails stay mostly on the rocks moving all over them, i hope they get enough food that way.

i removed as much of that long brown algae as i could and it doesn't seem to be growing back, there is some green algae growing on the glass but it's not enough to be a problem. seems like everyday i see something new, these flat worms with red heads and gray bodies and lots of legs, are they bristleworms? there are lots of these little grey things that run in and out of the rock, they seem to be increasing in numbers. they have a grey almost armor plated looking bodies with a number of legs and move very quickly - good guys i hope. there are numerous little plants starting to grow which i am trying to get pics of . i'll try to post those on here in the next couple of days. i assume that that is a good sign.

can i start adding some frags at this point or is it best to wait awhile longer? or fish for that matter but i was going to hold off on them til i was sure everything was ok. thanks for the help, i know this is basic stuff for you guys .

FragOutpost

11-11-2005, 10:49 AM

Hello littlemutt,
When all of your readings say zero then that usually means that the tank is cycled. The brown algae should just be a phase of the tank and it will not likely come back as long as you keep up with the regular maintenance. The green algae that grows on the glass will probably need weekly cleanings. Even the most established tanks will grow this green algae on the glass.

As for feeding the hermit crabs, I usually don't directly feed them. They will get any scraps that the fish might have missed.

The red and grey worms sound like bristleworms. Some people consider them as a nusciance but I feel that they are very effective scavengers. Usually if you see them eating something then it was probably already dead.

The grey armor plated creatures you mentioned are probably amphipods and are a sign of a healthy tank. These are very desirable critters to have. When you add fish to your tank you will probably see the amphipods more at night as many fish will eat these.

Since all of your levels read zero then you should be ready to begin adding fish and frags. Just take it slow and only add one or two things at a time. It is better to add any non aggressive fish first and let them settle in. If you add any territorial fish first then any passive fish you add later may get bullied.

Sound like you are off to a good start. Good luck and keep us updated!

littlemutt

11-21-2005, 07:36 PM

i've added 1 fire shrimp, 1 pistol shrimp, 2 emerald crabs, 1 procelan crab, and 6 snails. i've also added two zoanthids and two small ricordia's. these have all been added in the last two weeks.
i took new water tests last night and got theses readings:

ph 2.8
ammonia: 0.25
nitrate : 0
nitrite : 0

the ammonia reading is up, is that due to the additions? and is that a problem? do i need to do anything or will it go down by itself? one problem i'm having is with feeding the 2 shrimp, i got some frozen meaty seafoods - 4 types and this is where i am having trouble, i bought a plastic clip with some plastic mesh designed to hold the frozen food but it doesn't work well, when i put a piece of food in it it seems to work it's way out before it hits the bottom with food floating all over the tank. and if i'm lucky and get it down there the fire shrimp has no problem and he comes zooming out and grabs what he can, but the pistol shrimp who also comes running out doesn't seem to be able to deal with the mesh and i'm not sure he's getting anything, he usually will come out only once and then seems to give up where as the fire shrimp will make repeated trips and take as much back with him as he can. a lot of the food ends up floating around the tank which i know is not good, could this be the reason for the ammonia spike? does anyone have a better method of feeding these guys? also how do you figure out exactly how much to give them? i keep hearing to feed them what they will eat in 3 minutes but this doesn't seem to apply to these guys especially the pistol shrimp and when i add fish it would seem like the problem will grow worse for them. any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

also the algae is still a problem with a lot of film as well as hair algae
growing in one tank, which is the tank with the shrimps and crabs in it, the other is much better with just some algae on the glass and small amounts growing over some of the sand. is this pretty much normal or is it the result of the ammonia readings? i keep cleaning up what i can but it makes a mess in the tank with floating debri, etc. i keep seeing photos of other tanks and they seem to be algae free and crystal clear. am i doing something wrong here or does it just take time to work itself out? thanks for any input.

FragOutpost

11-21-2005, 08:05 PM

I'm guessing you meant 8.2 instead of 2.8 for your ph. If so then that is good.
The elevated ammonia levels could be from the excessive food depending on how much you are feeding. I use a turkey baster for target feeding. I turn off all of the pumps so that the food doesn't scatter around the tank so quickly. Does the pistol shrimp have a burrow built? If so you can just use the turkey baster to target feed the burrow. Got any pics of the new shrimp? Have you considered getting a companion goby for the pistol shrimp?

also how do you figure out exactly how much to give them? i keep hearing to feed them what they will eat in 3 minutes but this doesn't seem to apply to these guys especially the pistol shrimp

Start will small portions and slowly increase the amount. Over time you will figure out the correct amount. If there is food left over in the tank then you have probably fed too much.

also the algae is still a problem with a lot of film as well as hair algae
growing in one tank, which is the tank with the shrimps and crabs in it, the other is much better with just some algae on the glass and small amounts growing over some of the sand. is this pretty much normal or is it the result of the ammonia readings?

Both of your tanks are plumbed together, right? Which means that they share the same water supply, but you also have different lighting on each tank. You posted earlier that you had a 96 watt 50/50 compact pc on one tank and a 64 watt 50/50 compact pc on the other right? How old is the bulb on the tank with the algae issues? Which lighting is on the tank with the algae problem? You could easily test whether it is the lighting that is causing the problem by switching the lights from one tank to another. Then if the same algae begins to grow in the other tank and decreases in the original tank then you will know that your problem is the lighting.

D12monkey

11-22-2005, 10:01 AM

I'm agreeing with Frag.... The algae issue looks like it could be from the lighting. Did you buy the fixtures and bulbs new? Try a swap of lighting and see what happens. Most bulbs have a lifespan of a year or less before they fall off their specturm. Once this happens it facilitates the algae growth.

littlemutt

11-24-2005, 01:31 AM

both light fixtures are new with new bulbs, the 64 watt is the one over the 24 gal nano cube which is the tank with the shrimp,crabs and most of the snails. the 96 watt is over the 20 gal cube that i built, that just has snails in it so far, i would try switching the lights but the 64 watt light is built into the hood of the nano cube and the whole top would have to come off ( not easy to remove ) and wouldn't really fit over the other tank. i was thinking of getting some additional lightning in the form of those new t-5 fixtures that can be daisy chained, do you guys think more lighting would help?
i took another ammonia reading and it was closer to 0 than 0.25 so i'm really getting confused here, i have the lights programed to stay on for 12 hours a day, is that to long? could this be the problem? i thought that the more light the bigger the algae problem. i'm amazed at how fast that stuff grows. i clean off the glass daily and by the next day it's back again - very frustrating. any other ideas to get it under control please let me know, at this point i'll try anything.
as far as the food goes i try to feed as little as possible and i use a net and try to remove any that goes uneatin or is floating around the tank. the fire shrimp is getting plenty of food but i'm not sure the pistol is, he works non-stop on his borrow which unfortunately is under the piled up rock, it's hard to tell where the entrance is as he keeps changing it. it's really neat tho watching him move all that sand around, he puts his 2 claws together and carries it out on top of them. he seems to work non-stop and i'm worrying that he's not getting anything to eat.i will get a turkey baster and try to feed him that way. i'd like to hire him to do some work around the yard, that guy is a hard worker.

FragOutpost

11-24-2005, 09:58 AM

Two of the main factors that algae needs to sustain growth are light and nutrients. Without one or the other algae can not sustain such growth rates. Nutrients are usually in the form of nitrates and/or phosphates. Are you using RO/DI water? Have you started doing regular water changes? Is your skimmer working efficiently?

littlemutt

11-30-2005, 11:34 PM

have been using ro water for the past 1 1/2 months, however i have not done any water changes just makeup water for evaporation. this has been runninng about 2 - 3 gals a week. should i do a water change and if so how much should i change? the algae is still there and the film algae over some of the rocks and sand seems to have gotten slightly worse in the tank with the livestock in it. the other tank which has only some zoas and snails seems a bit better although i still get brown algae on the glass.
i got a turkey baster today which i will start using, the pistol shrimp has a burrow now and is not digging as much so i hope he's finally picked a spot he likes. i bought an antenna goby today from my local lfs to keep him company, i hope that works out, i think he needs company. that is my first fish as i've been holding off til i got that algae thing under control. everything i have put in there seems to be doing well ( 6 snails , 1 hermit, 1 fire shrimp, 1 pistol shrimp, 2 emerald crabs, and 1 porcelain crab, although the later i have not seen since the day after i put him in so he may not be doing so good ). does it sound like i need to put more snails in there? i didn't want to overload it either, the refigium is a whole other story, i have red algae growing in there, not sure how all 3 areas can be so different seeing as how they are all connected.
i am going to try and post some more pics and see if i have that figured out, would like to get them down to normal size. thanks for your continued input.

littlemutt

12-01-2005, 01:46 AM

if anyone has any reasonable priced frags for sale i might be interested. would like to get something in my setup, local visit to lfs's in my area have shown me that i can't afford to do much at there prices and i figure frags will grow. please answer here or e-mail me - thanks

FragOutpost

12-01-2005, 07:45 PM

Go ahead and start changing about 10-20% of the water every week or two. Ideally it is better to change smaller amounts of water frequently than it is to change large amounts of water infrequently. Try changing out 2-3 gallons every day for a week or two. Are you running any carbon? How many total gallons do you have?

You should easily be able to sustain 20-30 snails if not more between all of the tanks.

Is the turkey baster helping with feeding the pistol shrimp?
Has the pistol shrimp began to bond with the goby yet?
You'll have to post a pic some time of the two.

What is the resolution of the photos you posted earlier? If your photos are 300 dpi then they will display very big on a monitor. For displaying photos online make sure that your photos are 72 dpi. Just a thought. Hope this helps.

littlemutt

12-03-2005, 05:01 AM

i will begin doing water changes, will try doing 2-4 gallons per day til i get at least 20% changed, the total water volume between the 2 tanks and the refugium is approximately 62 gals (20 - 24 -18 ) minus sand and rock. i am running carbon in the 24 gal nano-cube and purigen in nylon bags in the refugium input.

have a total of 10 snails which i will increase to 25 or so as soon as i can.

haven't really used the turkey baster yet as i've come up with a way that kind of works. i stick a piece of food inside the entrance to the pistol's burrow and within a second he comes to get it. if he likes it he pulls it in, if he doesn't he just shoves it back out, it's actually pretty funny to watch him. am trying to get a pic of him but he doesn't come out in the open for more than a second at any given time. i wish he would stop all the excavation as each day he changes things around. when i put the antenna goby in he sat on one of the rocks for about 2 hours not doing much of anything but as soon as i stopped watching for awhile he was right at the pistols burrow and hasn't left since. when the shrimp comes out with a load of sand he merely moves aside then goes right back to halfway in the entrance, for me this is all new and it's pretty neat. after feeding i turn the pumps back on and whatever left over food there is starts moving around the tank and each time it goes by the goby he darts out and grabs a piece, i've noticed that he might eat the first 2 or 3 pieces then when he grabs the next piece he'll take it into the burrow and come right back out, he will eat a couple of more pieces then do the same thing. from what i can gather he must be bringing it to the pistol, i was amazed at how fast they teamed up and it has also solved the problem of leftover food in the tank.

i have a question that i'm not sure you can answer, does the saltwater have any effect on my septic system? i've been dumping it down the drain and am not sure if that's ok. would hate to create a problem in that area.

thanks for all the help

FragOutpost

12-03-2005, 04:55 PM

That is great that your goby and pistol shrimp teamed up so quickly. It must be great watching the two together.

As long as you keep consistent with the water changes and carbon, and ensure that your parameters are all in check then the algae should diminish in due time.

As for the salt water harming the septic system, I think it should be ok. I'm on a city connection so I can't tell you with for sure certainity but I don't think you should have any problems. I usually drain my used water into the yard.

Just in case you ever decide to culture micro algae, never pour a Nanochloropsus culture down the drain, as it can live in both freshwater and saltwater and could possibly contaminate local waterways.

littlemutt

03-02-2006, 06:49 AM

it's been awhile since i posted anything for a number of reasons but i haven't given up and have been maintaining my tanks. my problem is the same- algae! it seems no matter what i do i'm still plagued with it. i tested tonight and got the following results:

nitrates - 0
nitrites - 0
alkalinity - 180
ph - 8.4
ammonia - 0 - .25 (somewhere in between - test strip a bit hard to read)

i think with these readings i shouldn't still be getting all this algae but i am, i have tried a number of things to reduce it to no avail. if anybody has any suggestions please let me know.

what has disappointed me even more is when i tried to add coral to the tanks which i bought on seperate occasions - the 3 different corals which looked extremely healthy all 3 died within 2 days or less. each was $50 or more so it was upsetting, my lfs gave me a discount after the first one but with the next two i didn't even go back and tell him they had died, considering how healthy they had looked i feel the problem is on this end. also the frag that you had so kindly sent me died immediately, and now i'm not so sure it was the cold weather that did it. it's hard for me to understand because the stuff i do have in the tank which i had gotten from e-bay as frags are doing well ( 4 zoos and 2 recordia ) they have grown quite a bit and seem to be happy. i feed them plankton maybe twice a week, i hope is the right thing to do.

i want to get some more corals but right now i'm afraid to considering my track record. can anyone suggest what i might be doing wrong? the 3 that i had bought where 1 mushroom covered rock and 2 ancoria's (spelling),the lfs had said they where fairly hardy and easy to grow and should do well. any coral suggestions would appreciated. thanks

FragOutpost

03-02-2006, 10:45 AM

Welcome back littlemutt. Sorry to hear that you still have algae issues. Are you using test strips for all of your measurments? Ammonia is very toxic even in small amounts. Nitrifying bacteria should normally convery ammonia to nitrite reasonably quickly. If your nitrates are at 0 then that doesn't sound right either. It is normal to have some nitrates in your tank. If in fact your nitrates are at 0 and your ammonia is detectable then something is wrong with your tanks ability to process waste. Please take a water sample to your LFS and have them test the water and compare your results.

Have you added any antibiotics or medications to your tank? Is there any chance that any chemicals could have gotten in your tank?

What about your make up water? Are you using ro/di water? I think you already mentioned this so after I post this I will go back and re-read this entire thread.

FragOutpost

03-02-2006, 11:26 AM

ok after re-reading the thread I see that you are using ro/di water. How often are you doing water changes and how much are you changing at one time?

I would stop feeding the plankton and cut back on the amount of food you are feeding the fish and shrimp to only a few times per week until your algae issues come under control. Try to monitor everything that you put into your tanks as the nutrients have to come from somewhere. It sounds like you might be feeding too much food too often. This might be the source of your ammonia if there is uneaten food decaying everyday. But still your nitrates normally should be measurable in a new system like yours.

Can you post a pic of the brown algae again so we can compare it with previous photos? How is the refugium doing? You added some chaeto right?

I would not add anymore corals until your current issues are resolved. What is your acclimation process for adding new corals? After previous corals had died did you perform any water changes?

Are you still running carbon? If so, how often are you changing it?